Season 2 Episode 4

On Pandemic Book Promo and the Inevitable Question of Author Platform

This week is all about sales and promotion. First, a panel on pandemic book promotion with author Lee Matthew Goldberg and Digital Marketing Manager Lindsey Reeder, moderated by TRF's own Brand Manager, Anne Sampson. Author Michelle Kim calls in to read a letter, and in our continuing in-house panels, agents Tasneem Motala, Kathryn Willms and Sam Hiyate discuss author platforms, moderated by Anne Sampson. 

To listen: Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google, Stitcher, iHeartRadio,

This week, we’re providing a transcript of the first panel here in the newsletter, just in case. Enjoy and see you again soon!

Sam Hiyate (00:06):

Hi, everyone, welcome to season two, episode four of Agent Provocateur. I'm Sam Hiyate, Chief Agent Provocateur at TRF, and today's episode is all about the most important thing in the publishing world. Well, the second most -- after we get you a book deal -- and that's making sales. First, we take a look at how the pandemic has changed book promotion, and how many of these new aspects will stick around long after the virus itself.

Anne Sampson & Panelists (00:39):

I think we all miss the booze of in-person book events. That's like one of the perks, right? <Laugh> Totally.

Sam Hiyate (00:47):

Then we have a panel discussion about how important it is for an author to have platform.

Kathryn Willms (00:53):

No one will ever find your book, unless you do exactly what we're talking about in this podcast -- actively sell that book to your connections, make more connections, then sell them the book.

Sam Hiyate (01:21):

When the pandemic hit in early 2020, book publicists and marketers scrambled overnight to re-strategize book promotion. Suddenly book launches, in-person media interviews and signings -- all traditional tent polls of book promotion -- weren't possible. Two years later, it's time to take a look at what we've learned about book marketing and promotion during a pandemic. And see what, if any, of these new strategies are going to stick around.

Anne Sampson (01:54):

Today, I'm joined by Lindsay Reeder, senior digital marketing manager at Harlequin. Hi Lindsay.

Lindsey Reeder (01:59):

Hi, so nice to be here.

Anne Sampson (02:01):

And I'm also joined by author Lee Matthew Goldberg, whose newest book Vanish Me, the final book in his Runaway Train trilogy will be published on February 10th. Hi Lee.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (02:11):

Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be a part of it.

Anne Sampson (02:14):

Well, thank you both for being here. And I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager at The Rights Factory. However, in a previous life, I was a book publicist and I remember thinking at the beginning of the pandemic, Oh man, I am so glad that this is not my job anymore. Because I know how much planning goes into the promotion of a book and into the launch of a book. And I'm sure it was so devastating to see a lot of those plans just kind of flushed away. So maybe I'll start with you, Lindsey, because as a digital marketing manager, I'm sure a lot of eyes were pointed at you when that happened. So what was that pivot like for you?

Lindsey Reeder (02:53):

It was extreme <laugh> period. I had just come into this role. In my previous life, I was at Penguin Random House and had just started, didn't know anyone really. I'd only been at the company for four months and they said, We'll come back in two weeks just head home and we'll figure it out. And then the world stopped and everybody was looking at digital marketing to say, What are we doing? How are we making it different? How do we keep book sales going? And there were so many conversations and meanwhile, the publicity team is canceling everything and all of that money is lost. And a lot of money was shifting over to our team in particular to kind of exemplify, get everybody talking about all of that. So it was just unlike anything I've ever been a part of before, if I'm being honest, in 14 years in publishing. It was crazy <laugh>.

Anne Sampson (03:44):

And so Lee, you've had several books published kind of both before and during the pandemic. What kind of changes did you notice with the promotion of your books?

Lee Matthew Goldberg (03:54):

Yeah, I mean, huge changes. So with Vanish Me coming out next week it'll be my sixth book that I put out during this pandemic. So I feel like I kind of know what's going on and how to promote a little bit. And yeah, everything was fully virtual, but in all honesty, like I had a book with St Martins. They were happy that I did a tour, but everything came out of my pocket. I was paying for the hotel and the plane and I really booked everything. And how many sales did that really add to, you know, 30 people would show up to an event, 40 people. So I've really kind of capitalized on virtual. I've had outside publicists, I've done a ton of virtual tours for all my books. And I've kind of learned like what works and what doesn't. Like, everything with this industry and this career, I throw everything at the wall and I see what sticks and basically what doesn't. And honestly a lot has really stuck during the pandemic in terms of promotion. And I feel like I'll use that, even, hopefully when we're out of this and we actually could be in person again, touring -- I'll still do virtual.

Anne Sampson (04:59):

Great. so do you think this, like maybe the shift to online events has opened you up Lee, to more readers to your book? Like people that you wouldn't have been able to reach before with online events?

Lee Matthew Goldberg (05:12):

Yeah, absolutely. I've focused a lot also on like Instagram. And I have an outside publicist. He's like a teen, he's like a kid. Like I pay him to just find me Insta followers and send the book out to them and then they promote it and it works great. Sometimes 200 people respond, 300 people, 400 people. It was never really something I had thought to really do before. And then in addition, I run a reading series, Guerrilla Lit reading series. Obviously we couldn't do that in person. We've done that virtual the whole time. And what was great about that, is we weren't only taking authors from New York City where I am. We had authors from London and sort of all over the place that were able to participate as well. And in the future we'll always keep it hybrid. So we'll be able to kind of have hopefully in person, but we also, in March, when we come up again, we'll have an author who's you know, far away as well to be able to participate.

Anne Sampson (06:08):

And what about you, Lindsey? Do you think you've been able to draw on more readers because you work in Canada and the U.S., right? For your books?

Lindsey Reeder (06:15):

That's correct. Yes. Yeah. It was originally quite hard because I think every author that I've worked with was going out and doing tons of free things. And from a publisher's perspective, we're looking at it kind of overall of like how do we make a book sale? And they're giving away so much content for free because everything had -- the ground had fallen out from underneath them. So they were like, I gotta do something. I'm home. I'll just jump on Instagram live. And I don't know if you guys remember at the like start of the pandemic every time you opened Instagram, there was like eight lives happening and now there's only one, but we're back to that. <Laugh> But I do, I think that the big question that we as a publisher were having, was talking about how do we make sales, how do we ticket these events? And it feels different than joining your exercise class for free every night, you know, those kinds of things. So how could we make it an experience 2.0, as opposed to something you could watch for free? And I think that was a big part of the conversations we were having overall.

Anne Sampson (07:16):

So how do you make an experience out of something online?

Lindsey Reeder (07:19):

There's different ways. We've done a couple of things. And Lee, you might have different experiences too, but we did a couple of, a lot of signings, book plates and things like that and going out packages, but that gets very costly, very quickly. Things like that. We had one event that it was for Mother's Day and you could bring your mom or someone that's like a mom in your life to come and meet three different authors. And the ticket was like 15 bucks or something like that. And then somebody got a chance to win all three books at the end. Things like that, something that was more of an experience, but then there's that, and I'm sure we'll probably touch on this, but that fatigue, that Zoom fatigue. I've done this, I've sat in eight hours of meetings all day and now I'm on Zoom at night. Like it was, there was exhaust too. So it was that ebb and flow of trying to figure out what was different. And why would someone show up?

Anne Sampson (08:11):

So Lee, it sounds like you're very happy with the online events. Would you even want to go back to in-person or how are you...?

Lee Matthew Goldberg (08:18):

Oh yeah, no, I miss in-person so much. Like, I'm over Zoom. You know, what I meant more is to just find some kind of middle ground and hybrid. You know, and especially if you're not an author, who's like an A-list author, that has so much marketing money behind them. You know, in all honesty, it's like, how much are you really doing outside of virtual anyway? So you know, for an author like myself until I reach that level, hopefully yeah. Like, I think I have -- we're about to announce like a five book series that I have coming out. So that's all coming out in the second half of the year. And hopefully with that, I'll be able to maybe kind of book some in-person events because you know, you miss that feel of like fans actually coming, friends, family. Signing books, like just the smell of books around you. It doesn't quite compete online. Honestly.

Lindsey Reeder (09:14):

I would say, and on the readers community, I'll just speak on behalf of all of them. I think that that appetite for readers is there too, like on the flip side, authors want it, but I know the community is -- they miss the experience of talking to an author, getting that signature in front of them. You know, even launch parties. I miss launch parties. I know the community misses it. It feels so special.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (09:34):

Yeah.

Lindsey Reeder (09:34):

I don't think any of this will ever go away from this industry. I know like every time there's a new thing -- adult coloring book, an e-book an audio book, the industry kind of, it peters out after a while. And it's the same thing that we all love and know about books, which is that consistency of just turning the page and talking to the people that wrote the words.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (09:52):

So I did a launch party for the first book in the YA Series, Runaway Train. And it was just as Delta kind of hit New York and kind of took over in the summer. And I was like, at that, I'm just going to do it in Central Park, outside.

Anne Sampson (10:07):

Amazing.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:08):

Friends and family came, we had about 30, 35 people. There was like a teacher's party going on and they gave us all their booze and food and then they bought some of the books. And it was wonderful. And it was like, I could feel even from friends and family who were, you know, just came because they loved me that they missed, like in person things. So I feel like there's a way kind of around it in ways, even if you can't be like in a bookstore. As long as the weather's nice and you have a park nearby, bring the booze and yeah, you can have an event.

Lindsey Reeder (10:42):

There's always so much booze.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:43):

There's always so much booze. I still actually have, they were like rose in a can. And they gave me so much. I'm like, I can't drink that. Yeah. I don't even drink, really.

Lindsey Reeder (10:54):

This took a turn

Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:55):

<Laugh> Yeah, it took a turn.

Anne Sampson (10:57):

I think we all miss the booze of in-person book events.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (11:00):

Yes.

Anne Sampson (11:00):

That's like one of the perks, right. <Laugh>.

Lindsey Reeder (11:03):

Totally.

Anne Sampson (11:04):

Of publishing events. So a lot of authors struggle with self-promotion, especially online. Both of you are really active on social media. How do you get over that initial, like anxiety, of putting yourself out there, Lee, do you want to start?

Lee Matthew Goldberg (11:19):

Sure. Yeah. I mean, at my core I dislike social media and I don't enjoy it. And it's something as an author, I've just learned to accept and get over it and try to find what I enjoy with it. So when I'm interacting with somebody who's a reader or in the industry or my other side, sort of the Hollywood side and people -- I'm into it. And you try to kind of balance your promotion with life stuff and stuff that's not just about books, so you're not just this robot. That's just like, Buy my book, buy my book, buy my book over and over again. So it's kind of finding that middle ground. And I think, you know, the writer's community on places like Instagram and Twitter so supportive and everybody really lifts -- there's literally a hashtag #writerslift and it's purpose is lifting up writers. So you could find your kind of people on it as much as possible. And I would say, do what you feel comfortable with, you know, and I don't know, I devote maybe like 20 minutes a day to it. Like it's not that difficult in all honesty and I'm moving away from Facebook because that I'm finding more toxic, and doesn't really help anything. And just kind of, you know, people tooting their own horn, kind of.

Lindsey Reeder (12:35):

Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, like that's exactly what I always tell authors. Do what makes you feel the most comfortable. Going on camera, forcing it? The second it feels inauthentic, like the community will know, and then it's forced. So they know someone asks you to do it -- going to the places where you feel the most comfortable. I think you even with TikTok in the pandemic as a whole, I think every author was like in my inbox and, Should I get on TikTok? What do I do on TikTok? The answer is if you're not ready for it, don't do it. Go where you're comfortable and find your footing there and everything else falls into place. You don't have to do everything because you'll start to spread yourself too thin. So Lee, I like your, you know, 20 minutes, all you need kind of thing. And that, in a lot of ways, it can feel like a part-time job if you let it <laugh>.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:20):

Yeah.

Lindsey Reeder (13:21):

But it doesn't have to.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:21):

Yeah. I think that's great. Tiktok is my next sort of hill that I'll climb.

Lindsey Reeder (13:28):

Especially with YA books, you have to.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:30):

I know. I tried and I was doing readings and I was like, I don't think that's really what works. It has to be like quicker and, you know, have a little bit more like pizazz to it, I guess. I don't know. I'm 44 years old. <Laugh> but yeah, I think it's like find your niche and, you know, try to enjoy it as much as possible because people aren't stupid and they'll they'll glean if you're like not into it.

Anne Sampson (13:55):

Yeah. I think authenticity online is the one thing people can sniff out in -- inauthenticity. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative> so quickly. So for both of you, is there one pandemic change or if you had to choose one pandemic change to keep, going into a kind of post-pandemic world, what would that be in book promotion? Lindsay?

Lindsey Reeder (14:16):

Oh, that's such a good question. I definitely, I'm gonna say two things really quickly: hybrid everything. I think it just takes it to the next level, and for those people that aren't able to make it out to New York for an event or to Toronto it just opens up the door for everybody. So I love that kind of piece of it. It has to be done well, though. So that's really important. And then I think the other thing is we've moved really into a virtual world and it's no longer necessarily like you can't not know what's going on on the Internet. So I, as somebody who looks after a digital marketing team I'm so glad that we're having different conversations now. And we're not the last person on the agenda anymore. It's just like, Oh yeah, social media. You know, I think now I think the conversation's just shifted in a big way. So that's really exciting for my part of the division.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (15:06):

Yeah. I would agree 100% hybrid everything sort of from now on and you know, I mean embrace it, it just gives you more, a bigger opportunity to promote your book, which is, you know, really what nobody could be JD Salinger anymore. Like you have to promote your book. It's just like the world we live in <laugh>. And I would say leaning for myself really into like Instagram tours and paying companies who do it right to do it and you know, really getting it out there because that's where I've seen the biggest like bump for my thriller books, for my YA books. You know, I work with like three or four, I think different ones. And they range in price, but I feel like it really gets the word out there and then you see people like, oh my God, I heard about that book from another tour and et cetera. So for me that's something I'll always keep. Yeah.

Anne Sampson (15:54):

Great. Well, thank you so much for both being here today. It was a great conversation.

Lee Matthew Goldberg (15:56):

Of course. Thanks so much for having me and great to meet you too, Lindsay.

Lindsey Reeder (16:00):

Yeah. Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.